The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

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Matter
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#2804 The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by Matter » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:56 pm

A few years ago, under a different guise, there was a discussion on this Forum about the origins of the Murder Stone on the Disley to Whaley Bridge road. I am researching the trial of Joseph Dale for his part in the murder of William Wood on that fateful evening in July 1823 and I have couple of questions which I hope someone on the Forum may be able to help with.

Firstly, is the Bull's Head at High Lane (How Lane in 1823) on the same site as the Bull's Head where Dale and his two accomplices first met their victim?

Secondly, I understand that parts of the White Hart pub in Whaley Bridge date back to that time, but can it be safely assumed that it is the same pub as that with the 'sign of a Buck', where Dale tried to hire a chaise to take him and the others to Buxton?

There are numerous confusing facts in this case, caused in the main part by Dale's own account of what happened. But these are two that I hope someone may be able to help with. Thank you in advance for your help!



gritch
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#2821 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by gritch » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:39 pm

The Bull’s Head in Disley was on Buxton Old Road where Stone seat Cottage is now.
See http://cheshireimagebank.org.uk/fronten ... BhZ2U9NTE=


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#2827 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by Matter » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:09 pm

Thank you Gail. I had read that there was a Bull's Head pub in Disley and its good to have that confirmed and a bonus to see a photo of the building! That means that there were possibly three pubs in the vicinity called the Bull's Head at the time of the murder, ie this one at Disley, one at Bullocks Smithy (now Hazel Grove) and at How Lane (now High Lane). The press at the time (e.g Chester Courant 22/7/1823) said Mr Wood met his assailants at a pub 'in How Lane'. The article does not mention the name of the pub, but I can only find reference to a Bull's Head there, which of course is the name of the current pub in High Lane next to the Macclesfield Canal. I was just wondering if anyone had any further info that might suggest the four men met at one of the other Bull's Head pubs? If not, I think I will just go along with the How Lane reference.



R. Stephenson-Smythe
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#2828 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by R. Stephenson-Smythe » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:59 pm

Hello Matter,

If you read my thorough account on the history side of this forum entitled "The Murder Stone" you should find a lot of the information you require.
You will see there that William Wood did meet his assassins in The Bull's Head in How Lane.

There is much more information there that will assist you.

R. S-S



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Norm
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#2829 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by Norm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:47 am

Matter wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:56 pm
A few years ago, under a different guise, there was a discussion on this Forum about the origins of the Murder Stone on the Disley to Whaley Bridge
"on this Forum", sorry I am a bit lost where this is. Can someone help please? :?:



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#2839 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by Gnatalee » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:58 pm

From the main page, scroll down to follow "Link to the History Website" and then click on the "Subject" heading and all will be revealed :D Enjoy the read :)

Gnats

(There you are Norm, I am paying attention !)



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Norm
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#2840 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by Norm » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:22 pm

Hi Gnats. Er I know where it is on the history site, I got the impression it was the Murder Stone on the forum, and as far as I know it hasn't been mentioned on this forum.



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#2841 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by Gnatalee » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:50 pm

Obviously I'm not paying attention enough ;) :lol:



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#2842 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by R. Stephenson-Smythe » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:53 am

Hi Gnats,

When a body was discovered in unusual circumstances it was taken to the nearest pub where an inquest would be held (note that all the deaths at the gunpowder mills in the Goyt Valley were taken to The Shady Oak).

It is strange therefore that Edmund Pott took William Wood's body to the Cock (which would be later named The Jodrell Arms). He must have passed a nearer pub: Mrs Swan's Beerhouse.

I suppose that Norm is correct in that maybe Pott did call at Mrs Swan's but she failed to answer the door for whatever reason.

R. S-S



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#2848 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by Matter » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:45 pm

Thank you R S-S for the reference to the previous discussion. I saw this some while ago and it was part of the inspiration for me to try and find out more about Joseph Dale and the (very) unfortunate William Wood, who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If anyone needs reminding, the discussion can be found following this link: http://www.whaleybridge.net/forum/posts ... rder-Stone.

So far as Mr Pott and his friends taking Mr Wood's body to the Cock Inn is concerned, at Dale's trial there was some discussion as to whether the three suspected murderers tried to enter the Swan for a drink. John Johnson, a wheelwright from Whaley Bridge, told the Court that there was a licensed house with the sign of a Swan just outside Whaley, but it had not sold ale for two years on account of the licensee's wife being 'out of her mind.' Presumably this is why Pott et al took Wood's body to the Cock Inn.



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#2851 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by R. Stephenson-Smythe » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:56 am

Matter wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:45 pm

So far as Mr Pott and his friends taking Mr Wood's body to the Cock Inn is concerned, at Dale's trial there was some discussion as to whether the three suspected murderers tried to enter the Swan for a drink. John Johnson, a wheelwright from Whaley Bridge, told the Court that there was a licensed house with the sign of a Swan just outside Whaley, but it had not sold ale for two years on account of the licensee's wife being 'out of her mind.' Presumably this is why Pott et al took Wood's body to the Cock Inn.
Hi Matter,

Where did you come by this information. I t is new to me and not contained in my own account of the events.

R. S-S



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#2858 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by R. Stephenson-Smythe » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:32 pm

Well, in the absence of any further information or enlightenment, I think we can dismiss this as a fantasy.
R. S-S



Matter
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#2859 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by Matter » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:23 am

I am sorry not to have come back before but, according to the records made at the time, this would seem to be fact not fantasy.

Under cross examination by Dale's defence counsel (David Jones), John Johnson, a wheelwright from Whaley Bridge, told the Court that there was a house with the sign of a Swan above the door 'between Etchell's house and Whaley'. Johnson said that the landlord, Joseph Sidebotham, had a licence but did not sell ale as his 'wife is out of her mind' a consequence of which he did not 'do so much business.' Source: 'Full Report of the Trial of Joseph Dale' published by Joseph Pratt of Manchester after Dale's execution on April 21st 1824.

I have spent four years researching this most intriguing of cases and have discovered that there is a lot more to Dale's story than might at first seem to be the case!



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#2865 Re: The Murder Stone, William Wood, Joseph Dale

Post by R. Stephenson-Smythe » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:00 pm

Hello Matter,

I am sure we would all be interested in reading your further reports on this incident.
My Grandma took me for a walk up to the Murder Stone in the 1950’s. I watched the men playing golf up there at the time. So I have had an interest in this for many many years.

Incidentally here is a report from our Furness Vale correspondent Mr David Easton:




Just 3 years later there was an attempted murder, very close to the same spot.
John Ellis of Parwick was on his way  to visit his cousin in Gorton. He spent the night at the White Horse in Horwich End.  Another man, calling himself Michael Murray had also spent the night at the inn.  Setting out the next day, Ellis saw that Murray was sitting on a wall at the roadside.. Murray changed the clogs that he wore for shoes and joined Ellis on the road towards Disley.  On reaching a lonely part of the road Ellis was hit with a blackthorn stick that Murray carried and beaten until defenceless. His pockets were rifled for a silver watch and a few shillings and a bundle containing a waistcoat, shirt and stockings, tied in a plaid handkerchief was taken.
A description of the robber and of the stolen items was sent by Mr Newton, the Whaley Bridge magistrate to police in Liverpool and a notice was given to several pawnbrokers in the City. A few days later, a man answering the description of the robber presented a  silver watch to Mrs Fox, pawnbroker in St Thomas's buildings.  Mr Miller, the Superintendant of Police was immediately informed and Murray taken into custody.
Ellis had been taken to Disley where he lay in a state of imminent danger.  The prisoner was brought before him and unable to speak indicated by gestures that Murray was the perpetrator of the crime. Seeing no chance of escape, the prisoner said "Yes I am the man that did it and I am very sorry for it now"  He offered to shake Ellis by the hand but the gesture was declined.
The prisoner was taken to Stockport and later committed for trial at Chester Castle.  He gave his real name as Philip McGovern, an Irishman



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